There had been churn-tampering involved ([info]i_dreamed_i_was) wrote in [info]ap_racism,
2005-09-21 18:30:00
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  • Mood: thoughtful
  • Music: Do-do-do-do, do-do-do...

And now we open up the floor to wild speculation...

As I study the origins of race and racism in the U.S., I am struck by the fact that the entire theory of both rests on a false dichotomy that places “black” and “white” (oh-so-"fittingly") on opposite ends of a racial spectrum. Asian Americans, Latinos, Natives, et al. all fall somewhere in-between. Their exact positions vary for reasons having more to do with history and socio-economic postioning than "skin color." And of course, much has been written of certain groups-- the Irish and the Jews, for example-- actually "becoming white."

My question* is: In the absence of a "one-drop rule" for non-black POC, will all other races eventually "become white," too? If not completely in the cultural sense, then in the sense of having "white skin privilege?" Especially given increasing intermarriage?

Given that many non-black Latinos and Native Americans currently "pass" for white in our white-normative culture, and bi-/multi-racial folks with white and non-black heritage often "pass" as well (see: Rob Schneider, Dean Cain), is this a likely scenario? Why or why not?

Follow-up question: What are the cultural and political implications of "white skin privilege" among POC? How does this relate to the fact that-- in my personal experience, only-- POC/bi-racial folks who "appear white" are more likely to push a "colorblind" and white-normative agenda than those who do not "pass?"

Wow. That sounded so pseudo-academic, LOL...

*Jeopardy! music*

Insights?



*Assuming that the erosion of racism continues at its current glacial pace.


EDIT: I should note that the spectrum to which I am referring has little to do with actual current socio-economic status and more to do with a perceived social hierarchy among the majority of Americans.

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  • 21 comments

[info]y2kready

September 22 2005, 01:28:45 UTC 6 years ago

Well when u actually change your entire identity to become white then thats when it becomes an issue. Just like at latino hollywood. Most have either changed their names, married white spouses, or just acknowledge their latino heritage at all, yet are right there when its time to reap the rewards.

fuck...

Benjamin Bratt
All the sheens minus Emilio
Raquel Welch
Salma Hayek (yes I said it)
I could go on for days, but damn I cant think right now.

Basically, you wont get recognized unless you white yourself out.

and this isnt just for hollywood, I see this everyday too.

[info]i_dreamed_i_was

September 22 2005, 01:54:50 UTC 6 years ago

See...

and that's what I'm wondering.

You know, "becoming white" is a deal with the devil in a lot of ways-- but like all deals with the devil-- it's pretty sweet/tempting.

I mean, looking at a lot of Jews through the years... *coughJohnStewartcough* *coughDinahShorecough* changing their names, getting nose jobs... To "become white." Why wouldn't other folks do the same? As long as they "can?" (Read: they're not black. Or if they are, they have to look like Jennifer Beals.)

Shoot... My sister-in-law has the last name "Baker" because 80 years ago, no one would hire a Pole named Kaczminski.

[info]salmongirl

September 22 2005, 02:15:56 UTC 6 years ago

Re: See...

You know, "becoming white" is a deal with the devil in a lot of ways-- but like all deals with the devil-- it's pretty sweet/tempting.

After reading that part, I guess I was thinking along similar and different lines...
When white people "become Indian" (Native American) I often think to myself, "Really? You want to be an Indian? So as long as there's benefits involved and all is good, right?... But if all NDN's were forced to march back to their reservations, would you still want to be an NDN? If your property was suddenly taken away and you were left with nothing but your kids and some pop cans, would you still want to be NDN? How about if the cemetery where generations of your family was buried was paved over with a parking lot for Wal Mart?"

You know.. because that stuff still happens today. It's not every day we hear about NDN's STILL being taken from, because it's like we're forgotten people. We don't exist until a Casino down the block is put up. Then all the Wahnahbees come out of the woodworks. And if it isn't that, then it's the other end of the spectrum where NDN's are forced out of the tribe because the tribe has the greedy finger taught by good old Uncle Sam (Ex; tribes in California unenrolling NDNs.)
Well anyway, that's my rant for the evening. There's plenty more where that came from but I'll spare it :)

[info]salmongirl

September 22 2005, 02:18:33 UTC 6 years ago

Re: See...

I guess that didn't have much to do with your questions though, but somewhere in my head it tied in... Now that I'm re-reading it I'm not so certain.

LOL, sorry..

[info]i_dreamed_i_was

September 22 2005, 03:19:13 UTC 6 years ago

Yeah...

"Nutrasweet Culture" and all, with that "becoming NDN" stuff. *smh*

[info]salmongirl

September 22 2005, 03:35:41 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Yeah...

Yeah exactly.. We covered this before. LOL.

[info]y2kready

September 22 2005, 03:12:58 UTC 6 years ago

Re: See...

yeah but u dont always have to do that to become a success.

Edward James Olmos
Esai Morales
Jimmy Smitts
Elisabeth Pena.

[info]i_dreamed_i_was

September 22 2005, 03:21:38 UTC 6 years ago

Definitely not...

but it does seem to be a powerful "temptation" and a force to be reckoned with, for obvious reasons.

The Melting Pot... Heh. Everything that goes into that pot comes out a nice barely-off-white.

Deleted comment

[info]i_dreamed_i_was

September 22 2005, 04:00:09 UTC 6 years ago

LOL...

Like foam.

Deleted comment

[info]i_dreamed_i_was

September 22 2005, 04:14:03 UTC 6 years ago

Maybe I'm missing something...

but I'm going to have to agree, FTMP.

Now, she's dated a bunch of white guys, but she doesn't seem to have much skin privilege, she's got the accent, movie about Frida, etc...

[info]ardienteelsol

October 31 2006, 18:53:08 UTC 5 years ago

Re: Maybe I'm missing something...

The thing with Salma is that no one knows she's an intellectually accomplished woman. They see her as a sex bomb shell because of her curves and looks. She is seen as the typical "sexy woman with big breasts" and no brains when it's hardly the case. People also tend to think she is dumber because of the accent.

[info]i_dreamed_i_was

October 31 2006, 18:58:03 UTC 5 years ago

*nods*

I love Salma. She's my -50 pound body double. :P

But yeah-- she totally got Frida made and she's done some great work as a producer.

[info]gitana_negra

September 22 2005, 16:08:20 UTC 6 years ago

I believe that Benjamin Bratt's father is white (German) so he may have been born with that name.

Also- He may have dated Julia Roberts, but he married a latina (Talisa Soto) and they are having their second child @ the end of the year.

[info]vivianstcloud

September 22 2005, 19:00:32 UTC 6 years ago

And I have heard that he is very proud of his Quechua heritage and has talked about his mother being Peruvian. (so that makes him more indigenous by his own identification, btw, not hispanic).

[info]gitana_negra

September 22 2005, 19:03:35 UTC 6 years ago

Yup yup! He even made it so his character in L&O also had a Peruvian mother too...

[info]i_dreamed_i_was

September 22 2005, 19:24:11 UTC 6 years ago

Yeah...

Seconded on all that.

[info]ardienteelsol

October 31 2006, 18:42:19 UTC 5 years ago

Um, Salma Hayek is half Lebanese (hence Hayek) and half Mexican. She's not taken any roles that sell her out other than being Mexican and is often overlooked because Jennifer Lopez is "safe".

In fact, they even considered JLo as Frida first before Salma was because she isn't "safe" enough for Americans.

[info]chreebomb

September 22 2005, 02:40:00 UTC 6 years ago

in my extraordinarily uninformed thinking, perhaps those without obviously 'black' skin have more of a choice in the matter, thus the 'passing.'

so if more and more people choose to identify as white, perhaps that would only widen the chasm? with more people 'white' than black?

or perhaps more people will choose to embrace their identity as something that's not-white?

i don't know. that didn't really answer any sort of question, did it?

[info]i_dreamed_i_was

September 22 2005, 03:25:31 UTC 6 years ago

Exactly...

Because there's no "one-drop rule" (relic of chattel slavery/original racism) for other POC*, people without black blood DO have more "choice."

Still trying to figure this out, though...

*Except, in a weird way, for Native Americans. But that's official only, and has basically nothing to do with "white skin privilege." It does affect the lives of Native Americans, of course-- you might not date white people b/c your kids won't be considered "officially" Native, etc. But it doesn't play into majority perceptions of you, FTMP.

[info]salmongirl

September 22 2005, 03:42:30 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Exactly...

you might not date white people b/c your kids won't be considered "officially" Native, etc. But it doesn't play into majority perceptions of you, FTMP.

I don't know if you came upon this thread...

http://www.livejournal.com/community/nativeamerican/574449.html

But there was some discussion about that subject...

It has long been hated by the traditional families because it extracts a hideous penalty. Racial purity has a line of severance. This is race purity, not cultural or spiritual purity. The son or daughter who marries outside his race will produce offspring who are less "racially pure Indian stock" and that child will not be registered as Indian, forever ending their claim to belong. The penalty is against the child for no other reason than their parents chose to love another person out side of the Native American community outside their race. This is racism in its purest form and a formula for extinction.

[info]i_dreamed_i_was

September 22 2005, 04:19:02 UTC 6 years ago

Yes...

I was thinking of that thread, too.

Sucks. It's all a hot mess. If your blood quantum is "just enough," you could marry an non-NDN who totally loves you and respects your traditions and wants to "raise your child NDN"-- the whole nine. But your kid doesn't necessarily get the benefits.

It's just another form of the same ol' genocide, IMO.
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